Dialogue XII

Bhaktha: Swami, at Venkatagiri, during the 'Adhyatmika Sabha', You said some things, which I could not clearly understand: can I ask about them now?
Swami: I am happy when anyone asks me about things, which he has not understood. Of course, you have every right.

Bhaktha: You said Sthula-rupa and Sukshma-rupa, the gross form and the subtle form, isn't it? These two, are they the characteristics of the Manas only? Or are they related to everything?
Swami: They are characteristic of everything; in fact, all the names and forms found in the gross exist also in the subtle stage! Why, the gross is there, only to make you understand the subtle!

Bhaktha: Well then, Swami, we see the gross firmament, the Sthula-aakasa; has it a subtle Aakasa also?
Swami: My dear boy, all this exists in that subtle Aakasa. The subtle Aakasa is as imperceptible and as all-pervading as the gross Aakasa.

Bhaktha: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: It is known as the Sukshma Hridayaakasa, the subtle firmament of the heart.

Bhaktha: How can that be all-pervading?
Swami: Nothing else possesses the extent, the area, the breadth that this Hridayaakasa has. See how many scenes, how many feelings, how many conjectures, are immersed and imbedded in it!

Bhaktha: Then, have we a sun also in that subtle sky?
Swami: Of course! Who said, no? Without that, how can there be all this splendor, all this light and wisdom and brightness?

Bhaktha: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: When the heart is the Aakasa, the sun, naturally, is the Buddhi or the intellect that illuminates that sky. The effulgence of the Buddhi is as bright as the rays of the sun. So, the subtle sun is Buddhi.

Bhaktha: Then it is possible that the moon also in subtle form is in the Aakasa of the heart.
Swami: Why do you ask about all these, one by one? Did I not tell you at the beginning itself? Every gross name and form has its corresponding subtle form and name. The moon in its subtle form is Prema, with its cool rays pleasing to the heart. Love is the subtle form of the moon.

Bhaktha: Excuse me, Swami; the Pandavas and the Kauravas waged a war, isn't it? How are they supposed to have waged the 'subtle' war, these 'subtle' Pandavas and their opposite numbers, the 'subtle' Kauravas?
Swami: Why do you say, "supposed to have waged"? They are waging it even today in the subtle form! In this war, the evil qualities are the Kauravas; the good qualities, Sathya, Dharma, Santhi, Prema and Ahimsa, are the five Pandava brothers. The evil qualities are many and so the Kauravas too are a horde. Each one under his own Hridayaakasa, on his owns Chidbhumi is waging this struggle, every moment.

Bhaktha: Swami, they say the Pandavas are children of the king, Pandu and the Kauravas are the offspring of the king, Dhritharastra. In the 'subtle' form, how are we to recognise them?
Swami: Both are disputants for the kingship of the selfsame heart; they are in everyone as Ajnani and Sujnani, the unwise personality and the wise personality. The unwise blind ruler is Dhritharashtra; the wise Pandu is the father of all good qualities. Have you understood?

Bhaktha: But then, Swami, excuse me; in that war there were millions of soldiers and chariots, and the subjects; who are they in this 'subtle' conflict?
Swami: Of course, they are all there, in man. The million feelings and thoughts and impressions are the soldiers and subjects. The ten Indriyas are the regiments; the five senses are the chariots. In every one's heart there is this perpetual war being fought between good and evil, between the Pandavas and the Kauravas. Is that clear?

Bhaktha: Well, who is lord Krishna in the subtle war; He who was then neutral in that struggle for power?
Swami: Don't you know? He is the witness, known as Atma. He is Sarathi of the chariot of the Jiva.

Bhaktha: Another question. All these people had Hasthinapura as their capital then. In man, which is the Hasthinapura?
Swami: The basis for all these subtle manifestations, these men, chariots, Pandavas and Kauravas is, as you know, this Asthinapura, the city of bones, this body. This skeleton is Asthinapura! Both have nine gates. There, both the Kauravas and the Pandavas were born; they played and were trained there; they grew up together there. So also, in this same Asthinapura all the qualities, good and bad, are born and do grow; they develop and subside, they watch and hate each other, all in he same body. Are not the warring rulers in this body also Ajnani and Sujnani, the unwise personality and the wise personality?

Bhaktha: Yes, Swami. There is an intimate connection between the Mahabharatha war and the qualities and conduct of man. Really, the relationship is there, without doubt. What a fine comparison! As you said this type of warfare is taking place in everyone, even now. Well Swami, when will this war end?
Swami: When will this war end, you ask? When both 'bad qualities' and 'good qualities' fade out and man becomes quality-loss; then alone can man have Santhi.

Bhaktha: At the time, this battlefield, this Asthinapura, the city of bones will not exist, is it?
Swami: When there is a battle, there must be a battlefield. When you have no battle, why bother about a field.

Bhaktha: Can we not avoid the battle altogether?
Swami: Why not? Kings develop the spirit of war because they have confidence in their subjects. The subjects encourage the rulers to unleash the hounds of war. Delusions are the subjects, who push the individual into the battle. When there is a paucity of such subjects, war too will not be waged. So divest yourself of such subjects as delusions, illusions, feelings of 'I' and 'mine' and then, you can be at peace, enjoying undisturbed Santhi, my boy!... You can go now! Wait! Let me tell you one thing: entertaining doubts of all kinds is also a delusion, Vyamoha! Strive to be free from even this trait! Well, go and come some time later.