Bhaktha: Swami, at Venkatagiri, during the 'Adhyatmika Sabha', You said
some things, which I could not clearly understand: can I ask about them
Swami: I am happy when anyone asks me about things, which he has not understood.
Of course, you have every right.
Bhaktha: You said Sthula-rupa and Sukshma-rupa, the gross form and the
subtle form, isn't it? These two, are they the characteristics of the
Manas only? Or are they related to everything?
Swami: They are characteristic of everything; in fact, all the names and
forms found in the gross exist also in the subtle stage! Why, the gross
is there, only to make you understand the subtle!
Bhaktha: Well then, Swami, we see the gross firmament, the Sthula-aakasa;
has it a subtle Aakasa also?
Swami: My dear boy, all this exists in that subtle Aakasa. The subtle
Aakasa is as imperceptible and as all-pervading as the gross Aakasa.
Bhaktha: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: It is known as the Sukshma Hridayaakasa, the subtle firmament of
Bhaktha: How can that be all-pervading?
Swami: Nothing else possesses the extent, the area, the breadth that this
Hridayaakasa has. See how many scenes, how many feelings, how many conjectures,
are immersed and imbedded in it!
Bhaktha: Then, have we a sun also in that subtle sky?
Swami: Of course! Who said, no? Without that, how can there be all this
splendor, all this light and wisdom and brightness?
Bhaktha: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: When the heart is the Aakasa, the sun, naturally, is the Buddhi
or the intellect that illuminates that sky. The effulgence of the Buddhi
is as bright as the rays of the sun. So, the subtle sun is Buddhi.
Bhaktha: Then it is possible that the moon also in subtle form is in
the Aakasa of the heart.
Swami: Why do you ask about all these, one by one? Did I not tell you
at the beginning itself? Every gross name and form has its corresponding
subtle form and name. The moon in its subtle form is Prema, with its cool
rays pleasing to the heart. Love is the subtle form of the moon.
Bhaktha: Excuse me, Swami; the Pandavas and the Kauravas waged a war,
isn't it? How are they supposed to have waged the 'subtle' war, these
'subtle' Pandavas and their opposite numbers, the 'subtle' Kauravas?
Swami: Why do you say, "supposed to have waged"? They are waging
it even today in the subtle form! In this war, the evil qualities are
the Kauravas; the good qualities, Sathya, Dharma, Santhi, Prema and Ahimsa,
are the five Pandava brothers. The evil qualities are many and so the
Kauravas too are a horde. Each one under his own Hridayaakasa, on his
owns Chidbhumi is waging this struggle, every moment.
Bhaktha: Swami, they say the Pandavas are children of the king, Pandu
and the Kauravas are the offspring of the king, Dhritharastra. In the
'subtle' form, how are we to recognise them?
Swami: Both are disputants for the kingship of the selfsame heart; they
are in everyone as Ajnani and Sujnani, the unwise personality and the
wise personality. The unwise blind ruler is Dhritharashtra; the wise Pandu
is the father of all good qualities. Have you understood?
Bhaktha: But then, Swami, excuse me; in that war there were millions
of soldiers and chariots, and the subjects; who are they in this 'subtle'
Swami: Of course, they are all there, in man. The million feelings and
thoughts and impressions are the soldiers and subjects. The ten Indriyas
are the regiments; the five senses are the chariots. In every one's heart
there is this perpetual war being fought between good and evil, between
the Pandavas and the Kauravas. Is that clear?
Bhaktha: Well, who is lord Krishna in the subtle war; He who was then
neutral in that struggle for power?
Swami: Don't you know? He is the witness, known as Atma. He is Sarathi
of the chariot of the Jiva.
Bhaktha: Another question. All these people had Hasthinapura as their
capital then. In man, which is the Hasthinapura?
Swami: The basis for all these subtle manifestations, these men, chariots,
Pandavas and Kauravas is, as you know, this Asthinapura, the city of bones,
this body. This skeleton is Asthinapura! Both have nine gates. There,
both the Kauravas and the Pandavas were born; they played and were trained
there; they grew up together there. So also, in this same Asthinapura
all the qualities, good and bad, are born and do grow; they develop and
subside, they watch and hate each other, all in he same body. Are not
the warring rulers in this body also Ajnani and Sujnani, the unwise personality
and the wise personality?
Bhaktha: Yes, Swami. There is an intimate connection between the Mahabharatha
war and the qualities and conduct of man. Really, the relationship is
there, without doubt. What a fine comparison! As you said this type of
warfare is taking place in everyone, even now. Well Swami, when will this
Swami: When will this war end, you ask? When both 'bad qualities' and
'good qualities' fade out and man becomes quality-loss; then alone can
man have Santhi.
Bhaktha: At the time, this battlefield, this Asthinapura, the city of
bones will not exist, is it?
Swami: When there is a battle, there must be a battlefield. When you have
no battle, why bother about a field.
Bhaktha: Can we not avoid the battle altogether?
Swami: Why not? Kings develop the spirit of war because they have confidence
in their subjects. The subjects encourage the rulers to unleash the hounds
of war. Delusions are the subjects, who push the individual into the battle.
When there is a paucity of such subjects, war too will not be waged. So
divest yourself of such subjects as delusions, illusions, feelings of
'I' and 'mine' and then, you can be at peace, enjoying undisturbed Santhi,
my boy!... You can go now! Wait! Let me tell you one thing: entertaining
doubts of all kinds is also a delusion, Vyamoha! Strive to be free from
even this trait! Well, go and come some time later.