Dialogue VIII

Swami: Oh! How is this? You have come so early this time?

Bhaktha: You made me come, and so I have come! Is there anything I can call mine?
Swami: That is true, but will even a scrap of paper move without some cause? So too, for you to come so early, there must be some reason.

Bhaktha: Nothing else, Swami! Hearing that you are proceeding to Trivandrum on the 16th itself, at the invitation of Sri Ramakrishna Rao, the Governor of Kerala, I felt that I may not get much chance to speak to you if I come on that day only. So, I came now, excuse me!
Swami: That is well done! But why do you ask that I should pardon you? Really speaking, one should not ask for pardon, even when one commits wrong! Then, what is the fun of asking for it, when you have done the right thing?

Bhaktha: Why, Swami? Why should we not ask for pardon, when we commit wrong?
Swami: No, you must not ask, either for pardon when wrong is done, or for reward, when right is done! Doing right is but man's duty; it is its own reward. What other reward can there be? The joy of having done one's duty is your reward! Doing wrong is against the duty of man. So, one should pray repentingly, for the intelligence and discrimination necessary for not repeating the wrong already committed. Beyond this, it depends on His grace, whether He punishes and protects or pardons and corrects.

Bhaktha: That is very fine. Henceforward, I shall do so, Swami.
Swami: Let that be. Are you treasuring the gems given on the birthday and making good use of them?

Bhaktha: As far as possible! With my maximum effort, using the quality of Buddhi granted by You, I am putting them into action.
Swami: What do you mean by 'as far as possible'? For Bhakthas like you, what other task is there greater than this? Why is it not possible? You only need faith and the will. Then it should not be difficult at all to carry out the duty.

Bhaktha: Swami, You have Yourself said that even when there is faith and even when one has the will, putting things into practice may be difficult for want of favourable circumstances and also because the meaning of things may not be grasped clearly.
Swami: Oh! That means that both these, want of favourable circumstances and want of understanding, are bothering you! Well, if you have not understood, ask; and if you have no favourable atmosphere, tell me what is the obstacle?

Bhaktha: Doubt is the biggest obstacle; what can be bigger than that? Even after hearing so much, the demon catches hold of me off and on. I do not know why.
Swami: The first reason for that: your not having faith in yourself, born out of the conviction that you are really Atmaswarupa. The second reason: taking the divinity in humanity as humanity only and getting lost in the pursuit of sense enjoyment. These demons pounce on you for just these two reasons only. Instead, if you establish yourself in God, understanding the divinity in man as divinity itself, this demon of doubt will not attack you. You simply must give up this Adhyasa which makes you mix things up.

Bhaktha: There! You use now and then un-understandable words! That makes me even more confused, Swami!
Swami: I will never tell you un-understandable words. You have no power to understand; so you feel worried. I use them, really, in order to make you understand their meaning! Now, in what I told you, which is the difficult word?

Bhaktha: You used the word, Adhyasa. What does it mean, Swami?
Swami: What? You do not know the meaning of that! "Seeing one form and taking it to be another, superimposing one thing upon another".

Bhaktha: How is that? On which object do we superimpose another? Tell me.
Swami: Well, seeing a rope and imagining it to be a snake: seeing waves of hot air in the sun and imagining them to be horses; seeing a mirror shining in the sun and taking it to be a lamp...

Bhaktha: But what is it that I see and what do I take it to be?
Swami: You see Paramathma in this form of Prakriti, and take it to be mere Prapancha, or the world, and you are afraid. It is on account of this delusion that you have become the victim of all these varieties of weakness and you are declining through doubt and illusion. If you see it right, the delusion will vanish; the fear will disappear; the faith that it is Paramathma will be firmly and boldly established in you. To get that firmness, the lamp of Viveka is necessary. How much a man suffers, so long as he sees the rope as a snake! How much is the fear! The delusion! Can it be realised how all that vanished as soon as it was seen in the light? Similarly, these doubts and delusions too will vanish unawares, as soon as you know that Prakriti is Paramathma. Imposing a delusion on a delusion, imagining one object to be another, this is called Adhyasa, my boy!

Bhaktha: But, Swami, how can Prakriti be said to be Paramathma? When you ask me to discern this world, which appears as Prapancha to the eye, as Paramathma, doubt is sure to arise.
Swami: That is true. Still, if the reality is reasoned out, even what you now see will appear as Paramathma. Cloth cannot be formed without yarn, isn't it? Yarn is essential for cloth. In fact, it is all yarn. In spite of this, yarn is not spoken of as cloth, nor is cloth called yarn. This is exactly the relationship between Prakriti and Paramathma. Paramathma is the yarn of which the cloth, Prakriti, is formed. Has the yarn and the cloth become separate? No. The yarn is used in one way, the cloth in another way. But for this reason only it would be wrong to consider yarn and cloth as different.

Bhaktha: Yes, Swami. Since Prakriti is formed of Paramathma, it is clear that they are not separate. Now, if both these are the same, which among these is Jiva?
Swami: That is exactly the doubt that is tormenting you, my boy. The Jiva is the 'I' consciousness! The Jiva is associated with the limitations of body and the senses. But He is the Atma, Jivatma, Prathyagatma, Chidatma, doer, enjoyer, everything.

Bhaktha: Again another word. Jada is used to mean inert matter etc. What is it, this Jada? How does it operate? Tell me.
Swami: From Buddhi to body, all transformations of Prakriti are Jada. This is the unreal, the unconscious, the Asath, the Achethana. You must take everything that is not Sat and Chit as Jada. In essence the world is really Jada and nothing else. But Jada is inseparable from Chaithanya, or Chit and Sat, just as air is inseparable from the atmosphere. Why, it has been said in the Gita in the past, that all movable and immovable creation is due to the union of Prakriti and Purusha, don't you know?

Bhaktha: Then what is the relationship between Buddhi and Manas on the one hand and Atma on the other?
Swami: Well, really, there is no special relationship between them and the Atma; Atma is pure and without blemish; Buddhi too is pure and without blemish. And, just as the sun is reflected in a mirror, the splendour of the Atma is reflected in the Buddhi. Then the shining Chaithanya of the Buddhi is reflected in the Manas; the shining of the Manas falls upon the senses; the light from the senses falls upon the body. Now, what is the connection between all these? The relationship of all is the splendour of the Atma, is it not? The activity of every other thing is caused by the fact that there is a Buddhi, which can reflect that splendour, is it not? So, note how the Buddhi is related: this side with the Atma; and that side, with the Manas and the Indriyas, senses!

Bhaktha: Then, what is the relation between the Jiva, which says 'I' and the senses and the body?
Swami: There is no relation at all! The 'I' is separate from the body, the mind etc. The 'I' simply superimposes on the Jiva, that is, itself, the body-consciousness and the internal behaviours of the mind etc. 'I am fair' says the Jiva, superimposing upon itself some thing with which it has no connection. 'I am dumb', it says, making the same mistake about the senses. It says it has this desire and that and imposes on itself the activities of the Manas etc. All this is mere superimposition. The basic truth is only one, the Paramathma, the Paramjyothi, the eternal, the true, is only one! Understand this well.

Bhaktha: Ah; What superb teaching, Swami, if only this teaching of the principle of the Atma, which even children can grasp, spreads over the whole world, the world will emerge from darkness to light.
Swami: That is the reason why I converse with you about every point and allow all to partake in it. The sun's light falls upon the mirror, the light from the mirror falls upon the bungalow, the light upon the bungalow falls upon the eye. Similarly, this "Sandeha Nivarini" has been decided upon in order that the illumination of My teaching may fall upon the Bhaktha mirror, and thence onto the "Sanathana Sarathi" bungalow; in order that from there its effulgence may shield light on the peace and harmony of the world.