Dialogue VI

Bhaktha: Namasthe, Swami.
Swami: Subhamasthu.

Bhaktha: With Your grace, everything is Subham; without it, everything is Asubham.
Swami: Good, but have you realized how both these are based on grace? In one, both subsist; both are conferred by the selfsame grace. Well, let that topic stand by. Last time you got a folk poem to digest and it must have affected your thoughts deeply. Now, in what stage of equanimity is your brain?

Bhaktha: Ah. Everything appears a puppet show now, Swami. But only off and on. The mind forgets and gets caught by the fascination of the objects. What mystery is this, Swami?
Swami: Well, the mind is associated with all kinds of activities or Vrittis. It always follows the trail of the Vasanas, or trails of impulses and instincts. This is its very nature.

Bhaktha: That is as much as to say we cannot set it right. Then what is the hope? Ultimately, Swami, have we to get immersed in Vasanas and become degraded?
Swami: There is hope, my boy! No need to get immersed and lost. Though it is its nature, it can be changed. Charcoal has as its nature blackening all that it gets mixed with. But you should not take that as final. When fire enters it, the charcoal becomes red. So too, though the mind is always wandering in the illusion of darkness, when through the Lord's grace the fire of Jnana enters it, its nature changes and the Sathwic nature pertaining to the divine comes into it.

Bhaktha: Swami, they speak of something called Anthah-karana; what is it?
Swami: The mind is referred to like that. Karana means Indriya. Anthah-karana means internal Indriya.

Bhaktha: So, are there two types, internal Indriyas and external Indriyas?
Swami: Yes, of course. The external Indriyas are called Karmendriyas; the internal Indriyas are named Jnanendriyas.

Bhaktha: Swami, please tell me which are the Karmendriyas and which the Jnanendriyas.
Swami: Well, all acts done bodily are by Karmendriyas; they are five in number. Those which impart Jnana from inside are named Jnanendriyas. These are: hearing, touch, sight, taste and smell. Both these are together called Dasendriyas (the ten organs.)

Bhaktha: So, what is the work that both these do together? What is the connection between their function and the Manas or mind?
Swami: Well, really, whatever work they do, they can't achieve anything without the meditation of Manas. The Karmendriyas perform acts in the world and receive knowledge and the Jnanendriyas discriminate the good and the bad and offer them to the Atma, through the Manas. If there is no Mind at all, how can these transmit? When we have to reach the other shore of a flooded river, we rely on the medium of a boat or raft. When the Karmendriyas and the Jnanendriyas, which are connected with Prakrithi, desire to attain the Atma, they have to accept the help of the boat, Manas. Otherwise, they cannot attain.

Bhaktha: If so, where do these other things you spoke about, Buddhi, Chittam and Ahamkaram reside?
Swami: They too are in this only. The Jnanendriyas and Karmendriyas are both together called Dasendriyas. Of these, four are distinguished and referred to as Antah Chathushtaya, or the internal four Indriyas. Those four are Manas, Buddhi, Chittam and Ahamkaram.

Bhaktha: Very nice. That is to say, all are in the same thing. Life is indeed funny. But Swami, what is the function of these four?
Swami: Manas grasps the object; Buddhi examines arguments for and against; Chittam understands the object by means of these; Ahamkaram changes the decision for or against and by attachment, slackens the hold of Jnana. These are the things they do.

Bhaktha: Excuse me, Swami, I am asking only to know; where do these exist in the body?
Swami: I am glad; don't worry. Manas is in the cupola, Buddhi in the tongue, Chittam in the navel and Ahamkaram in the heart.

Bhaktha: Excellent. So, Buddhi and Ahamkaram are in the most important places! These are the chief causes of all the world's miseries. Then, if we examine it with reference to Your words, it looks as if there will be no misery when these two places are made pure!
Swami: You have indeed listened to me attentively. Yes, that is right. First, if words are used in a clean and pure manner, that is proof of Buddhi treading the right path. When Ahamkaram is suppressed and conquered, that is proof of the heart being pure. Therefore, be very careful as regards these two. Then, even your Manas and Chittam will come to have good Vrittis. Then only will you be free from pain and misery. They can happen to you then.

Bhaktha: So, among all these, who is the 'I'? Who is the experiencer of all this?
Swami: We have arrived at the right point. 'You' are none among all these! All these exist only so long as the feeling, 'This body is mine' exists. They are all associated with some activities or Vrittis. The Atma which observes all these Vrittis, that is 'You'. The joy and sorrow, the loss and misery, the good and bad of these activities are all related to the body only and so, they are not yours; they will not be yours. You are the Atma. Until this truth is realized, you sleep the sleep of 'I' and 'mine'. In that sleep, dreams appear of loss, misery, sorrow and joy. The dreams persist only until you awake and after you wake up, the fear you had while dreaming the sorrow you experienced, all disappear and are no longer true. Similarly, when delusion is thrown off and you 'awaken ' in Jnana, you will understand that all this is not 'you'; that you are the Atma.

Bhaktha: Then, Swami, for whose sake do these, the Manas, Buddhi, Chittam, and Ahamkaram, do all this work?
Swami: For no one's sake! They are engaged in their own work! The Atma observes everything and its shadow the Jiva, which is deluded by the association of the body-consciousness, plays this drama, through all these acts.